KJVO Arguments That Don’t Hold Up

The following is a response I wrote to a website I highly respect. My response, however, was apparently not approved, for it’s been over two months and it’s nowhere to be found. I completely understand and mean no ill toward the writer of the website. He is writing to the KJVO crowd and probably isn’t looking for an argument. However, the article, which gives reasons why the KJV is accepted as the exclusive English version, warrants a reaction. What I want people in fundamentalism to see, from all sides of the issue, is that these kinds of arguments simply don’t hold up. If one wishes to reduce the controversy to a text issue, there are tons of more reasonable discussions that can take place.

The article is titled, “The King James Version of the Bible” by Steven Houck, a Protestant Reformed minister.

These argument just don’t hold up
No matter one’s view on the KJV-only issue, it is imperative to see that these arguments prove nothing. The only way to get to the bottom line is through the textual issue, for that is what it all boils down to. An honest look at these arguments proves the point:

1. It is translated by men who were unsurpassed in their biblical studies

Fallacious logic on at least two grounds. 1) it is God who preserves His word, not man. To elevate man’s knowledge for the sake of defending God’s truth is simply wrong. 2) It is probably not true, in that the KJV translators, although very learned, didn’t have the wealth of linguistic and historical resources we have today, including knowledge of the critical text manuscripts. It is interesting that the KJV-only movement downplays scholarship as liberal, evil, and man centered when it goes against its ideology, yet praises scholarship when it agrees with the KJV-only position.

2. The translators were pious men of God who believed in the inspiration of the Holy Scriptures.

Great! But, so what? Again, man is not responsible, God is, and of course, the same could be applied to most of the translators of other versions. Since the translators of the NAS, ESV, and NIV were pious men who believed in inspiration, does that put it on the same level as the KJV?

3. It is the mature fruit of generations of English translations as well as the careful work of its translators.

Again, the same could be said of the modern versions, especially as it applied to translation.

4. The King James Version is based upon the Received Text rather than the critical Greek text of modern versions.

This is the strongest and only argument that can really be made, for the entire controversy all boils down to the text issue. Of course, questions must be asked. Why the received text? How do we know it is superior? Why do we trust that Erasmus included the “right” variations?

5. It is a word-for-word translation which faithfully and accurately reflects the originals.

The KJV uses dynamic equivalency at times (“God forbid”; “Easter”), and several modern versions are also word-for-word.

6. The language is one of reverence and respect which gives honor to the majesty of its Author.

God communicated His word into terms we can understand. The Bible should be translated into a language that the vast majority of people can comprehend. That’s the whole point of translation! So why stick to a version that includes words hard to be understood? Times change, language changes, truth does not.

7. Of all the English versions of today, it alone is the Bible of the Reformation.

Well, they still publish Geneva Bibles. This, though, is an argument from one side of history. Perhaps we should learn German and use Luther’s Bible, or get an English translation of it, if we are, after all, going to define our doctrine by the surrounding circumstances and not on God’s Word.

8. Our spiritual forefathers thought so highly of it that they were willing to suffer and even die for it.

They died for the Bible and the Christian faith, not a particular translation. Missionaries still suffer martyrdom while using a different version. Many were martyred before the KJV existed.

9. It is the version which has been recognized for generations and generations as the Bible God has given to His English-speaking Church.

Obviously not true before 1611. And what men “recognize” as something doesn’t validate it if God hasn’t revealed it as so in His Word.

I don’t give this response to argue about KJV-onlyism, but to show how these are not credible arguments to use for the position.

A word (well, paragraph or two) about these comments. . . 
My response to this article is not to attack anyone’s character. As a former KJVO, I want to distance myself as far from the kinds of ad hominem attacks, strawman arguments, and conspiracy theories as much as possible. I also want to be clear that the writers of this blog do not necessarily advocate one position over another. We both respect the eclectic text position as well as the received text position. But the positions referred to are those of the preferred status, not the exclusive kind. Based on what we have come to learn, the KJVO position is flawed. This does not mean we don’t use the KJV (our blog uses it, we use it in our churches, etc.), or that we can’t work with those who use it, or are even KJVO themselves. In fact, both of us work at KJVO churches. We feel we can work with those who espouse such a position – it is usually the advocates on the KJVO side that feel otherwise. So, we are not trying to ostracize ourselves from any individual or group. These are simply issues that have to be brought up, because whatever position to which one may subscribe, the above arguments just don’t hold up!

I also want to commend the work of Calvin George. He is one of a few voices defending the Bible from a new American attack on the Spanish Reina Valera version. For those unaware of the controversy, the King James Only issue is bleeding into Spanish-speaking countries. It seems a number of Americans such as Mickey Carter are launching a campaign to conform the Spanish Bible to fit the King James version. The majority of Hispanics, as well as Americans who grew up in Spanish-speaking countries (such as George), reject this new Bible, the Reina Valera Gomez, but others are being forced to accept it. This is tragic, for the KJVO issue has unnecessarily caused strife in America, and it looks as though it may do the same in foreign countries. Our brothers in South America and around the world need our prayers so that this does not happen. Thank God for Calvin George’s stand here. I would disagree with him on the King James issue when it comes to English, but his application to foreign languages is very consistent. In fact, his position is probably more like a “TR preferred one.” Check out some of his articles, including “Must all foreign language Bibles be revised if they don’t conform 100% to the Textus Receptus?” and “Early views of the Dean Burgon society on the Bible version issue.”

 

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14 comments so far

  1. Mike on

    If we can, let us leave the “text” issue aside. And look at the Masoretic and Texues receptus manuscripts from GOD’S point of view. When these manuscripts were universally accepted by the church. The church and all society enjoyed GOD’S blessings. In the early 19th century new and better books where gaining acceptance in the more “progressive” churches. You know the rest of the story. As these new and better books became more and more accepted in the “church???”. And as GOD’S most Holy and Preserved Word became more and more outdated. The church and society lost GOD’S blessing. Leaving the modern and enlightened “church” and society in the spiritual condition it now finds itself in…with no hope for itself or society until it returns to GOD and HIS one and ONLY FINAL WORD as preserved in the faithful KJ Bible.

    Now you can argue about text all you want, you can argue about how many degrees you have all you want…………But in the end it is not about you or I………..it is all about what GOD has and will bless……….Before the KJ Bible was replaced by the church the church was a very strong influnce in society. Since the KJ Bible has been replace by the church……..not one…no…..not one facet of society care what the church thinks…why!!!!!! because GOD has removed HIS “Candlestick” (Rev.2:5) from this nation and its church. All because the church will not remember, “From whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the FIRST works.” (Rev 2:5) Now folks that is the truth………the facts….the evidence against the church and against the new and better books. These arguments do HOLD-UP!!!!!!!!!

  2. DT on

    Great…here we go again!

    Why do those in the KJVO camp insist on using this kind of argumentation? I don’t have “many degrees” sir. In fact, besides a hs diploma, all I have is a Bachelor’s degree from an unaccredited Bible college, which I might add, was King James only! So please don’t try to make your points by attacking me personally, for you cast yourself in the rest of the bunch of KJVO that use this kind of unbiblical approach, for which you all must give an answer.

    Anyway, as for your comment – it made no sense. How can we “leave the ‘text’ issue aside” and then “look at the Masoretic and Texues receptus”? What does that mean? That is the text issue! And if you want to get into it, thse manuscripts were not universally accepted by the church. And what church are you referring to? The Greek Orthodox? The Roman Catholic? And as far as the Byzantine text, not Textus Receptus being universally accepted, it is true this is in the majority, but how does that prove your point? None of the Byzantine manuscripts agree one with another! So which is the Word of God? Do you think that the KJV existed since the time of Paul?

    As far as your historical argument, sorry it does not hold up either. If you take your approach, which I assume is: since the Byzantine text was “universally” accepted and blessings apparently ensued, we can contribute those blessings to the text underlying the KJV, you are dead wrong. What blessings? Nearly a century of Christian persecution? You don’t think there were independent, fundamental, KJVO Baptists in those days do you? And how about the blessings associated with the Geneva Bible, the Latin Vulgate, and the Welsh Bible (which was used during the Welsh revival of the 1800s)? Do blessings necessitate the exclusivity of one translation or version? Since God used a NAS to save my soul, is the NAS the only Bible I should use?

    And the other side of your argument, it seems, is that when the Byzantine/TR/KJV is not used, cursing, not blessing, ensues. The fact that “not one facet of society care what the church thinks” has nothing to do with the acceptance of modern versions. They don’t want to hear what preachers who use modern versions want to say either! And the only instances in which the soceity was on par with the church was in places such as the Holy Roman Empire, Calvin’s Geneva, Zwingli’s Zurich, and the Congregationalists’ colonial America. And why? Because there was a church-state tie, which is something I hope you’d agree is unbiblical. Sir, society never wants to hear about the Bible, no matter what version. And as to churches “falling” because of their non-KJV usage, you have got to be kidding. You can’t judge a church by its Bible version. There are plenty of KJVO churches failing too. In fact, many of them are responsible for the watered down, 1-2-3 pray after me version of evangelism that so plagues the church today! And who is responding to this nonsense? People like Paul Washer, John Piper, John MAcArthur, Ray Comfort, etc., none of which are King James only!

    So with all due respect, sir, read the article more carefully, and if you have any disagreements, please provide more substantial things to talk about.

  3. Tim on

    I will probably use the KJV for the rest of my life, but Mike… Come on!It is a version, a translation, and not a Greek and Hebrew scroll. What do the non-english speaking people who can not read English do? learn to read English so they can know God and have his blessing? Or, do we translate the words of God into their language… Will it be ok that it is not translated by King James, or will the non-english speaking world never recieve the blessing from God because the King James Version was not translated into their language?

  4. Mike on

    Thank you for your answer to my post. I am sorry if I have offended you with some of my statements when I mentioned…….”you can argue about how many degree’s you have all you want.” I was thinking not of you personally but of those the “scholars union” who spend most of their lives teaching young ministry students how gifted they are in their ability to interpert GOD…….when most of them could not even begin to expound on all the evidence presented to mankind in the very first verse of the Bible. Let along write a whole new book called the Holy Bible!….. Please forgive for my poor penmanship in that statement. In answer to your statement…”Since GOD used a NAS to save my soul, is the NAS the only bible I should use?” I do not believe how you were saved proves a thing about GOD’S most HOLY WORD. GOD used a man to lead me to salvation who did not have a bible on him or access to a bible within a mile in either direction……both testimonies does prove GOD is so compelled by HIS mercies that HE can and will use any means to save a lost soul. For this mercy I cannot praise and thank HIM enough! Concerning you statement on the history of the churches acceptance of the bible I would encourage you to spend just a bit more time in that field of study. You have made the statement “none of the Byzantine manuscripts agree with one another.” Did you not mean to say……all modern versions do not agree with one another….which is true……if that is not what you meant would you please be kind enough to provide me with the evidence to back up that statement .

    I did not say the church has been free of persecution……..ever! I said as long as the church honored GOD’S most Holy Word society and the church enjoyed GOD’S blessing. That is a true statement. I was born in 1938 I have witnessed the decline of this nation and the decline of the church. The decline started when the church left the Holy Word of GOD and took up books that were so-called the Holy Word of GOD. I am a Southern Baptist Evangelist. The SBC is not experinceing GOD’S blessings …there is no growth……baptism is way down and the churches are more of a social institution and baby sitting place (mom’s day out) then they are a house of GOD. To believe that GOD’S most Holy Word is honored and taught in these religious buildings and still GOD is withholding HIS blessings is an astounding lack of logic!!!!! My pastor has mentioned many times on Sunday morning he has twenty different books he calls the word of god………his preaching is so unanonited most of the congregation goes to sleep.
    Why? GOD cannot and will not bless twenty different points of view…..HE will bless ONLY HIS WORD PERIOD!!!!!

    One more point for now. GOD has called me to pulpit supply for the last two years. in that time I have gone to many different churches. I always use GOD’S WORD to preach from. About a year- aqo I was asked to pulpit supply in St. Louis. A rather large church. After the evening service many of the people came up to me saying how blessed they were…several ask me to be their pastor. They did not know me from Adam…but…this much they did know….. they had heard from GOD that Sunday! Sir that is a weekly event. I was asked to fill in for our pastor one Sunday……..for two weeks the people came up and thanked me for the messages……not only that thay made the pastor invite me back for Fathers Day. I have been asked by more churches to pastor them then I can count. But, GOD has not released me to such a ministry.

    There is only one reason I have had that response to my preaching …the people of GOD are straving to hear from GOD …..when a man who has one of the new books come its back to the same old dead church. Cute programs and jokes from the pulpit.

    Again, in the last two years I have traveled quite a bit. There are not many KJ bible churches left but the ones that are are not dying. They are strong in the LORD and growing every day with joy in their hearts……I of course have not seen every church in this land but of the ones I have seen those are true statement.

    Again I do not know what you mean by 1-2-3- pray after me evangelism so I canniot address that.

    Again the ones you name who are addressing this problem do not like nor believe the Word of GOD. But, again I do not know anything about the problem so I do not know what they are saying. Really the only name I know is John MacArthur and he was asked to leave the Fundamental Bible Fellowship Association for his non-biblical teachings.

    I do have more to say….but….it has been a long day and I am growing somewhat tired.

    By the way…….you mentioned several men concerning the 1-2-3 thing…….I would remind you to read again the statement you have on your blog concerning J.I Packers answer to the question…”Who’s the greatest preacher alive today?.” I agree with his answer….I would far rather talk with an old county pastor who has been alone with GOD for most of his life then I would a thousand MacAuthur’s!!!!!!! I know! I have spent many hours with so called big time preachers…most of it a waste of mine and GOD’S good time!!!!!!

    I did read the article very carefully, and yes I do have many disagreements. But, with all due respect sir, for me to present my disagreements you will need to better educate yourself on church and bible history. Not to mention manuscript evidence.

    In the meantime I pray for GOD’S Good and great blessings upon you and your family
    even beyond all that you might think or ask and of even more import each of you leading one more soul to CHRIST our LORD!!!!!

    DOXAZO to the one who is so worthy of all praise, honor and glory

    I am your and HIS most humble servant

    Mike

    Psalm 119:10-11

  5. Mike on

    My Dear Brother Tim:

    Just a quick answer to your statement about non-english speaking people. Just use the masoretic and textus receptus manuscripts and tanslate it into what ever language is needed. The KJ Bible is not a version it is a translation/tranlitration were the “I KNOW WHAT GOD SAID ” is used the words are in itilitcs …….at least the translaters of the KJ BIBLE were honest when they injected their opinion…….

    Our modern scholars but whole verse in brackets as if they could not possibly be wrong!!!!!!

    if you should like we will talk more but, I am rather tired today perhaps more tomorrow if you would like.

    Blessings Mike

  6. DT on

    Mike,

    Thank you for taking time to discuss these things. Thank you for serving our Lord for so many years, and may He bless you to continue to serve Him! We are brothers in Christ and I have nothing against you. Sometimes it’s hard to intepret exactly the tone in which things are written. But I see that there are some serious misunderstandings about this issue, or at least the way it has been articulated.

    First, the question about “if the NAS saved my soul…” was not meant to provide a standard by which we judge the best Bible. It was my demonstration on how your the logic you used to prove the exclusivity of the King James is faulty logic. You are using a sort of existential approach. Just because there were blessings in America for a period of time and the KJV was the dominant Bible does not necessarily mean it’s because of the translation. If that were true, then a statement like, “since the NAS was used to save me” would fall in line with that reasoning. It seems, also, that when referring to “society” you are thinking of America 50 years ago. Well, it’s true America was for a while a nation that enjoyed God’s blessings, and it is well documented that this is because of the Christian influence. It is equally true that American society is becomming morally corrupt and even theologically bankrupt. But again, you are jumping to conclusions. You are saying that it is a fact that is is because churches jumped from the KJV to a modern version. I’m sorry, but you have no evidence to prove that. There are tons of more reasons, including theological ones, for our nation’s moral and spiritual decline.

    But what about other countries? I never suggested that you said that the church was free of persecution. What I am saying is, based on your logic, since the church “accepted” the underlying texts of the KJV (I”m talking way back now), why were there so many years of persecution? Think about the pre-reformation era, the Dark Ages, the inquisition. Was not the Byzantine text still the majority? Did not churches use it? How can you attribute America’s decline to the rejection of the King James but claim that when it was accepted then blessings abounded? Either you’re not thinking outside America, or you haven’t thought this through historically.

    Concerning the Byzantine manuscripts not agreeing with each other, this is fairly undisputed fact that can be researched with a simple click. (The only disputation would be rabid KJVO conspiracy theorists who deny the very existence of textual variants). Variants exist in every text type, including the Byzantine or Traditional text underlying the TR and consequently the KJV. Evidence? Wallace says the Majority Text differs from the TR in over 1,800 places, and this is universally accepted. Both the MT and TR come from the Byzatine. According to Hodges and Farstad (compilers of one edition of the MT), there are five distinct strants of manuscripts of the Majority text type. Think about highly disputed passages. Take I John 5:7. Why disputed so much? Because it only has minority support. So while it is a Byzatine reading, not all Byzanine manuscripts have it, in fact the majority does not. This is one example of the many differences.

    You also should not judge a church or movement based on baptisms or church growth. God is still in control if people leave the churches in droves. James MacDonald once said, “God can cut your attendence in half tomorrow and be more thrilled with your ministry than ever before.” For years and years those who walked the narrow road suffered against the majority of so-called Christians. So the SBC’s decline can be attriubted to much, but certainly not its rejection of a particaulr translation. Besides, I would say the conservative resurgence that’s been going on is a tremendous blessing not only within the movement, but for those who come in contact with current conservative Southern Baptist preachers and seminiaries.

    Not every KJV church is being blessed while non-KJV churches are declining. Sir, I attend a KJVO church and we’re struggling. Several in our area are as well. Some with modern versions are doing better. But again it all depends on what you think “better” is.

    The 1-2-3 thing is the watered down evangelism that pervades fundamentalism and evangelicalism today. It’s basically a “quick prayerism” or “easy believism” thing. We pronounce people saved simply for saying a prayer – this has produced tons of unregenrate church members, and it happens most prevelantly in KJVO churches. Hence, being KJVO doesn’t necessarily mean it’sa good church. Seventh Day Adventists, Ruckmanites, and Mormons use the KJV.

    Those who are the most vocal preachers speaking out against easy believeism include, but are not limited to, guys like MacArthur, Piper, Washer, and Comfort. My point is not to elevate personalities, but to show you that God is blessing us with a call back to biblical evangelism through non-KJVO preachers, and the hersey they are correcting is found mostly in KJVO circles. In essence, the modern version guys are correcting the King James Version guys.

    Finally, why do people insist on saying the KJV is not a version, when “version” appears right on the cover??

    So there’s a bit of argumentation for you to chew on, hopefully the little bit of evidence substantiates my claims, and hopefully it all came across in a Christian spirit.

    God bless you

  7. Mike on

    Good Afternoon my Dear Brother in the LORD!

    Sorry I am so late in my answer today…but the youth at church put on a play this morning and it ran just a bit long.

    If I may so comment you do love to reference many different “scholars???” and clergy don’t you. No possibility they could be wrong of course!

    Second, you ask for proof or say I provided no proof of historical facts. History happens that we can agree on……you seem to be insisting that history happens in a vacuum……..IE,: man does whatever he pleases in and out side of the church and there is no corresponding action by or on the part of GOD……Second…..it is a historical/scientific/physical fact the earth and the universe exist…….my impression of you is…..if I had made that statement in a previous post and said that GOD played a great roll in the creation of the cosmos …..you would answer and say I presented no proof GOD was involved one way or the other…..therefore the mechanics that control the workings of the cosmos were completely indifferent to divine creative power free to interpet the workings of the cosmos as it sees fit………. if you believe GOD is little more then a indifferent supernatural being with no interest in HIS creation and without honor in HIS cheatactro (WORD)

    There would be no more proof I could present …….I cannot prove GOD to a non believer………please do not mis-understand me…..I am not for a moment saying you are unsaved…..I am saying all of your argument to date has more then convinced me you do not believe ALL of GOD’S HONOR is HIS WORD.

    In Psalm 119:89-92 GOD, HIMSELF has guranteed the bible to be free of any errors and contradictions

    ,Mere human beings you included say not so GOD !!!!!! WE have found errors and contradictions and are now working on the 30th new and better bible then the one you preserved (Psalm 12:6-7; Psalm 138:2) and blessed and used to win more souls to your son then 10,0000 new books………

    Since these new books have become so accepted in the modern church there has not been one revival in this nation that has won literally thousands of souls to CHRIST and even changed entire towns and empty jails as it did in the days of Billie Sunday and Moody and such all of which used the KJ bible and GOD blessed those evanglist and the towns and cities they preached in ………….

    I hope we both can agree GOD is still alive! (I cannot prove that statement to your standards…but your standards change nothing HE is ALIVE!) ………..

    But according to you and your scholar hero”s GOD is DEAD!!!!!!! You have found errors in HIS WORD and now HE must kill HIMSELF!!!!!! Ezekiel 33:11

    In that awful book that is so hated by many inside and outside of the church

    We read of another person much like our modern day scholars and clergy who did not believe GOD’S WORD is GOD’S honor

    We read about him in the book of Daniel. His name was Nebuchadnezzar. He did not believe GOD WORD was without error , he did not believe GOD was perfectly capeable of preserving HIS WORD as HE meant it to be published.

    Until he found out GOD’S very honor was HIS WORD and GOD would indeed do what HE had said HE would do.

    Of course I cannot prove to your educated hero’s a word of what I have just said………There are just to many conflicting manuscripts to be sure what happened ….if anything did…….we are pretty sure (speaking as scholars think) …now…based on the lastest evidence that Daniel was not written by Daniel…….or if it was……we know Ecclesiastes was a third cousin to Matthew who was a late brother to Jeremiah who correct all the errors written by Mark which was a much later and better manuscript then Saint Revelation who is many hundreds of years earlier then the will known profit Genesis. which brings us back to the corrected (for now) Daniel. The modern clergy and scholar may not know for sure about GOD’S WORD but I am willing to bet my very salvation (if I could) that Nebuchadnezzar knows very well just how much of GOD’S honor is involved in HIS WORD!!!!!!!

    Come on my good bother don’t try to sucker a con……..I have played in the big leagues as I told you in a earlier post……….I know their game plan very well…..they love to play the manuscript who has the manuscript game…….A great waste of your, my and any other honest Christians good time. Which is why I have not bothered to get suckered into your manuscript questions at this time…..I will be happy to discuss the manuscript question. When you have done some study on the men who are used as authorities on manuscripts.

    Do you know what Irenaeus believed and taught about scripture?

    how about Clement or Origen or Jerome?

    These men are all considered Fathers of scripture by modern Scholars who want you and I and all Christians for that matter to believe that GOD has left to the church NO reliable bible except what has been written and approved by modern scholarship!!!!!!

    what do you know about the Westcott and Hort theory? what about Vaticanus and Sinaiticus unical manuscripts or how about them there XXX? (Septuagint)
    were there 70 rabbis or was it 72 did they know each other or were they locked in rooms and never talked to one another? What happened to the Septuagaint? See there we go again manuscript who’s got the manuscript? This is so much fun. Trying to find something that is a legend!!!! The theory of evolution worked for science. Surely we can get away with it in biblical authority…..we can’t find the missing link…but….we know it is there…..thus all work we do on this matter is true and may not be questioned period!!!!!….I are scholar!!!!!

    Just to prove to the world and any Christian who does not know better just how good they are they have found bibles written just for ‘plumbers,” “Barbers,” “babysitters,” “airline pilots,” “steamship captains,” “cooks,” “bottlewashers,”
    “all thinking clergy,’ AND ANYONE ELSE WHO DOES NOT WANT TO BELIEVE THE WORD OF GOD IS TRUE AND WITHOUT ERROR…….the ONLY sure HOPE of human SALVATION through HIS SON (HIS WORD) [John 1:1] JESUS CHRIST (HEB7:20-28) HE has done these things because HE cannot sware by anything greater then HIMSELF (Heb 6:13)

    My good friend in the LORD……..you want to talk about manuscripts ……I want to talk about the LORD………..I want above all else the sure hope of salvation in CHRIST the LORD….GOD has given me HIS most HOLY WORD that I may indeed have salvation through HIS SON JESUS CHRIST if I believe in HIS SON (WORD)……..I do!!!!PERIOD!!!!!!

    I cannot prove this to you….you must believe and trust and obey by faith and faith alone!!!!!!

    once you do that ……..all the arguments about latest and greatest will suddenly seem rather silly……….and you will become amazed how GOD preserved HIS most HOLY WORD in human history amist all the fury and attacks mounted not only by Satan (Genesis 3:1) but by ever will meaning good godly scholar who ever lived!

    That is what is truely amazing about manuscript evidence….think about this!!!! There is more manuscript evidence to prove the Masoretic and Textus Receptus text are the preserved without error WORD of GOD then there are manuscriptus to prove Shakespear ever lived or wrote any play……Now that is pretty convincing to me………I will stake my salvation on it…….

    The books you want to pawn off on Christians are only good tell the next printing………why not be honest and tell them their salvation is only good tell then also……..The scholars are sure by the next printing they will find something better then a young unwed(read not a virgin)[the better manuscripts read thus] girl giving birth to a baby in a stable. In ten years the Gospel of Judas will
    be included in the new and better books…….don’t believe me…..just wait……..How do I know these things shall be? History my friend…what GOD has said HE will do….He has done……and what GOD has done …He has said HE would do……….before HE comes the church must fall away……just as it was in Noah’s day ……so shall it be when CHRIST returns…..lawlessness will run rampart….so much so GOD will not be able to tarry with man any longer………in Noah’s day GOD’S WORD was as it it today in the professing church……..without honor…….without authority……without any meaning………thus as it is today ….no power to restrain lawlessness…..only the church can stand against unholy lawlessness….but not on its own ……it must have the power of GOD and the power of GOD is HIS WORD……..If the church is without GOD’S WORD it will be but another seed that fell on stoney ground and never spring up so the weeds (evil) of the field overcame it….

    Why do some people refuse to address the KJ Bible as a version?

    For the simple reason it is NOT a version………I know your bible says version, most of mine do to………who printed your bible? The same people who printed the bad version, the niv, the silly version, the nasvb version, ect, rct.

    They are printers and they are in a business to sell books….any BOOK! If they mark one book above all other books then they will only sell one book…the book of books………sooooooo! We will make all books the same….we will call all of them versions and then it becomes a preference and marketing tool for BIG profit! Neat isn’t it. The KJ Bible is no longer the Received Text it is a version. Fooled you didn’t it? You are not the only one…the church has almost been destroyed by this neat ploy of Satan….but…GOD is still on the throne…..what HE has said HE would do HE has done…..what HE is going to do about this latest satanic attack against HIS WORD is History to HIM and the Future to us……..but, even so, for those who are true believers of HIS WORD…..we know the future …….HE will do what HE has said HE will do….period!!!!!!with all due respect to whatever manuscript said that…if one even did????? Ask Mark….no he was correct by Paul…well ask him…no he was correct by Oh forget it!!!! Read, study, pray over the KJ BIBLE….you will NEVER go wrong my friend….NEVER!!!! you have GOD’S most HOLY WORD on it………

    I pray this little message has been a help to you in your struggle to learn of GOD and of HIS HONOR in HIS WORD which is HIS SON! Again, my good friend in the LORD I do this because I am a Christian, I am not a Greek, A Roman, A Egyptian, A philistine or other heathens that worship many false god’s……I worship the one true GOD of Israel who never changes nor ever grows tried.

    If I accepted those other books of being of devine authorship I would be worshiping many other god’s for they all claim to be from a god who never ever agrees with the other god.

    If I remember right some manuscript forbids such a worship, but, true to form I am confident Irenaeus will find a better more improved manuscript for me so I will no longer be under such unloving laws.

    We can call it the “New No-Fault Bible.” hardback pew copy just $29.95

    (copyrighted of course) us good godly scholars would not for a moment give god any credit for the enclosed words………even scholars have some scruples……….Those are our words and labor god isn’t as smart as we are he could not have come up with half the things we came up with in this book…..

    all the new versions are copyrighted….no KJ BILE is copyrighted…..only the helps are in a KJ BIBLE…….GOD gets the glory and praise for HIS works in the KJ BIBLE man get the glory and praise in the new versions……

    As with you I pray you will receive this post in a Christian Spirit……..

    In prayer for GOD’S greatest blessing in your life…….

    Mike

  8. DT on

    Oh boy, we may be here for a while. Mike, I appreciate your zeal, but its obvious this is not a discussion for which you are fit to participate. You are regurgitating some of the same tired KJVO arguments that have no biblical basis. And surrounding those arguments with pious talk doesn’t prove your point.

    Look, I have the utmost respect for the King James preferred position. I understand people’s allegiance to that particular version. I also can see why some might prefer a Bible translated from the Traditional rather Critical Text. But if you’re going to claim exlusivity for one English translation you have got to do better than that.

    I am leaving your comments up so people can see just what kind of logic undergirds the KJVO position.

    I will only respond to a few things.

    In one comment you said, “You have made the statement “none of the Byzantine manuscripts agree with one another.” Did you not mean to say……all modern versions do not agree with one another….which is true……if that is not what you meant would you please be kind enough to provide me with the evidence to back up that statement .”

    So I follow your request and provide you the evidence in my next comment. But now you say this:

    “…..they love to play the manuscript who has the manuscript game…….A great waste of your, my and any other honest Christians good time. Which is why I have not bothered to get suckered into your manuscript questions at this time…..I will be happy to discuss the manuscript question. When you have done some study on the men who are used as authorities on manuscripts.”

    And:

    “My good friend in the LORD……..you want to talk about manuscripts ……I want to talk about the LORD”

    I don’t understand, sir. Don’t ask for proof of something and then preach at me for providing it and attempt to make me seem like an unbeliever.

    Also – not one of my “scholar heroes” says God is dead…the KJV belongs to the Crown, and in 400 years the modern versions will also be copyright free…Good News publishers is a not-for-profit organization that donates sales of Bibles to the ditrbution of Bibles around the world. . .revivals happen with or without the KJV….and just because I’m not KJVO doesn’t mean I buy into higher criticism and think Daniel didn’t write Daniel and so forth…..it’s the LXX not XXX, and it is not a legend. You are jumping to huge conclusions, and to tell me on one hand that my studies make me some sort of know-it-all defamer of God’s words, but on the other hand I just haven’t studied enough to talk about things is pure contradiction.

    Only comment back if you have something substantial to say.

    So for now, God bless, keep serving God…we’ll talk more in Heaven.

  9. J. Smith on

    DT, you are a callow fool. Learn how to talk to your elders before you affect to be a teacher of God’s people. Pathetic.

  10. Mike on

    I do proof read my post’s but as publishers know, never proofread your own material, you will not catch all the errors…….you are correct XXX does not equal LXX in Romam notation……….sorry……..Mike

  11. absolutegrace on

    DT, Thank you for taking on this subject. To me, the spirit behind the argument says it all. The Lord is full of truth and GRACE. Thank you for your truthful and gracious approach.
    Linda

    Fyi, I enjoy the NAS and ESV :-)

  12. Anton on

    i hope all of you would read other language and understand a little bit how it works.
    i read russian bible and english (kjv nkjv nasv esv) but kjv most and russian bible is translated from the same text by very good translators long time ago and i believe about its preservation as much as you do about kjv and guess what. there is differences.
    i think arguement about church loosing stand on KJV and loosing stand in society is not good at all. first, since when do we need the aprove of society? second, the requirements are humbling yourself and turning from your wicked ways with that we have a problem big time and not about some version of translation…

    To the Praise of His Glory,
    Anton.

  13. Joshua Nelson on

    I would call myself a Christian who strives to conform his worldview to that which is taught to us in the Bible. That is, I want to come closer while I live this life to having a Biblical worldview. I would call myself a fundamentalist because I hold to the fundamental (basic) doctrines taught in Scripture. I did not always call myself a Baptist: but now I do. However, many now in Baptist circles have made the implication that if one does not believe the TR to be the perfectly preserved Gk Txt. (I believe that there is no such thing, though I believe that the vast majority of manuscripts will be right the vast majority of the time, and so hold to the Majority Text as the best, not necessarily perfect, Gk. Txt: It may be that we can find the perfect text, since the right readings, I believe, are preserved somewhere among the manuscripts; but even if we can’t, we should remember that before the printing press, many generations of believers used imperfect copies of the Bible; and if we, having the possibility of comparing all the original manuscripts, or, nearly all of them; can come to a very very good text, which is likely nearly the equivalent of the autographs; why should we reject it? John Wycliffe translated from LATIN, because that was the best he could do with what he had available to him at the time; the KJV translators used the best available to them at their time; now we have the ability to compare virtually all the manuscripts, why not use the best available to us at our time? I feel strongly about the text issue; but have respect for those who have truly looked at the evidence and come to different conclusions. Why will many KJV supporters NOT look at the real evidence with an open mind, and be fair to other positions in the process? This saddens me. What will happen in 100 years (if the Lord tarries)? Do the KJVO people know that the KJV was revised in the past? Why is 1769, if I have the date right, the official last time allowed to revise it? (and why was it not revised into 1769-English at the time?). Do we want a Present Day English translation of the Bible? Why would such a translation be bad?

    My position is further complicated because God has called me to be involved in Bible translation. I plan to work with Bibles International, a branch of Baptist Mid-Mission.
    I have moved recently, but not switched church membership yet.
    I also plan to go to the Graduate Institute of Applied Linguistics in Dallas, TX; to get an MA in descriptive linguistics. I am a graduate of Maranatha Baptist Bible College.

    I do not belong to a church that could ever support me, since I would be primarily using the Majority Text and translating from the original languages, while refusing to translate incorrrectly in order to confrom the translation to the KJV, or any other translation. I want to look at other translations, so that I can learn from what other translators have done; but will not be reduced to copying them. That would not be honest. I will, no doubt, make enough mistakes of my own, without purposefully copying the mistakes of others (to all of whom I by saying this intend no insult).

    The history of the LXX, which came to be considered for a time an “inspired translation”; and of the Latin Vulgate, and, apparently, of the Old Slavonic Version; show that this kind of controversy is not unique to English-speakers.
    God does NOT re-inspire His Word!!!
    He did that once; in Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic.
    God never said that only one translation is allowed for each language.
    Those who say so, are putting words into God’s mouth.
    The verses quoted to defend this un-defendable position are always
    mis-applied, and/or mis-interpreted.
    I will not compromise my integrity by translating from
    less than the best text available to me, or by not
    translating in a linguistically-sound way, etc.
    But I rejoice when God’s Word is translated-
    from the Critical Text, from the Majority Text, from the TR,
    into languages which have no Bible. Any reasonable
    translation from any reasonable text is a reason to
    rejoice. Paul said he rejoiced even when the Gospel was preached
    by those who, apparently, didn’t really believe in it-
    In parallel to Paul, I rejoice to see God’s Word translated
    for Bible-less peoples, even when I strongly disagree
    with how it is done.
    This does not mean I will compromise my integrity
    by doing translating, if God mercifully allows me to in fact
    be involved in it someday, in any way less than the best
    way I can; but it does mean that I rejoice
    when God’s Word is spread.

  14. Steel on

    Wow, I barely started reading it and I already bumped into the Alexandrian cult’s mental illness:
    “To elevate man’s KNOWLEDGE for the sake of defending God’s truth is simply wrong.”
    then goes on to say right after it:
    “we have today, including KNOWLEDGE of the critical text manuscripts. ”

    I guess for attacking God’s words and authority it is fine to elevate man’s KNOWLEDGE. Genesis 3

    There’s only one Authorized Version, the rest are unauthorized trashcan perVersions.

    I won’t bother reading this trash further, I scanned over it, same useless whining to justify one’s own perceived wisdom, which is foolishness.


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